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	<title>Comments on: Models of Greenhouse Effect</title>
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	<link>http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/</link>
	<description>The power of numeracy</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-131960</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/#comment-131960</guid>
		<description>Hello sadunkal.  Have a look at this link http://members.shaw.ca/sch25/FOS/Climate_Change_Science.html for a list of issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello sadunkal.  Have a look at this link <a href="http://members.shaw.ca/sch25/FOS/Climate_Change_Science.html" rel="nofollow">http://members.shaw.ca/sch25/FOS/Climate_Change_Science.html</a> for a list of issues.</p>
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		<title>By: sadunkal</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-131796</link>
		<dc:creator>sadunkal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Could you sum all this up for a non-scientist please... Is the Miskolczi paper confirmed so far..?

And is there a long list of peer-reviewed papers somewhere which contradict the &quot;consensus&quot; ? I&#039;m trying to show a scientific-debate-denialist that the science isn&#039;t settled yet...

Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could you sum all this up for a non-scientist please&#8230; Is the Miskolczi paper confirmed so far..?</p>
<p>And is there a long list of peer-reviewed papers somewhere which contradict the &#8220;consensus&#8221; ? I&#8217;m trying to show a scientific-debate-denialist that the science isn&#8217;t settled yet&#8230;</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-129804</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 11:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;Miskolczi seems to be saying that Kirchhoff’s Law says emission and absorption must be the same.&lt;/i&gt;
Is this clearer?  Its from his previous paper http://hps.elte.hu/zagoni/idojaras2004_Vol108_No4.pdf

As a consequence of the Kirchoff’s law, within the clear atmosphere the
downward emittance is approximately equal to the absorbed flux density.
Based on our data set, the global average clear-sky downward atmospheric
emittance is 311.4 W m–2, while the global average of the absorbed
radiation by the clear-sky is 311.9 W m–2. This equivalence – for the highly
variable atmospheric emission spectra and for global scale – was not shown
before with such a high numerical accuracy. 

&lt;i&gt;the model presented really does ignore non-radiative fluxes&lt;/i&gt;
p3: The net thermal energy to the atmosphere of non-radiative origin is K.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Miskolczi seems to be saying that Kirchhoff’s Law says emission and absorption must be the same.</i><br />
Is this clearer?  Its from his previous paper <a href="http://hps.elte.hu/zagoni/idojaras2004_Vol108_No4.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://hps.elte.hu/zagoni/idojaras2004_Vol108_No4.pdf</a></p>
<p>As a consequence of the Kirchoff’s law, within the clear atmosphere the<br />
downward emittance is approximately equal to the absorbed flux density.<br />
Based on our data set, the global average clear-sky downward atmospheric<br />
emittance is 311.4 W m–2, while the global average of the absorbed<br />
radiation by the clear-sky is 311.9 W m–2. This equivalence – for the highly<br />
variable atmospheric emission spectra and for global scale – was not shown<br />
before with such a high numerical accuracy. </p>
<p><i>the model presented really does ignore non-radiative fluxes</i><br />
p3: The net thermal energy to the atmosphere of non-radiative origin is K.</p>
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		<title>By: Barton Paul Levenson</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-129784</link>
		<dc:creator>Barton Paul Levenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 09:08:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/#comment-129784</guid>
		<description>Miskolczi seems to be saying that Kirchhoff&#039;s Law says emission and absorption must be the same.  That&#039;s not what it says at all.  It says emissivity and absorptivity must be the same (at a given wavelength, for a body in local thermodynamic equilibrium).  That&#039;s only one of the many problems with his paper, which really should never have passed peer review.

And the model presented really does ignore non-radiative fluxes, thus giving a completely wrong answer.  Earth&#039;s surface is cooled by two radiative terms (absorption of sunlight in the atmosphere and window radiation) and two non-radiative terms (sensible heat and latent heat).  Altogether these mechanisms amount to 209 watts per square meter lost from what would otherwise be the 320 K surface temperature of the Earth.  You can&#039;t just ignore those factors if you want to calculate Earth&#039;s surface temperature at all realistically, and Miskolczi does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Miskolczi seems to be saying that Kirchhoff&#8217;s Law says emission and absorption must be the same.  That&#8217;s not what it says at all.  It says emissivity and absorptivity must be the same (at a given wavelength, for a body in local thermodynamic equilibrium).  That&#8217;s only one of the many problems with his paper, which really should never have passed peer review.</p>
<p>And the model presented really does ignore non-radiative fluxes, thus giving a completely wrong answer.  Earth&#8217;s surface is cooled by two radiative terms (absorption of sunlight in the atmosphere and window radiation) and two non-radiative terms (sensible heat and latent heat).  Altogether these mechanisms amount to 209 watts per square meter lost from what would otherwise be the 320 K surface temperature of the Earth.  You can&#8217;t just ignore those factors if you want to calculate Earth&#8217;s surface temperature at all realistically, and Miskolczi does.</p>
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		<title>By: Jan Pompe</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-129553</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan Pompe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/#comment-129553</guid>
		<description>NIck,

&quot;emittance is not really intensive;&quot;

flux density is just as intensive a property as pressure which is also expressed as units/unit area.   It follows from the definition of an intensive property which is  a property that does not depend on the size of the system.  Changing the volume is irrelevant and the area (system size in this case) makes no difference.

Check it out for yourself in wikipedia if you are uncertain.  In any case the two words are used interchangeably by enough folks for Merriam-Webster to include one in the definition of the other, and there is a simple linear relationship between the two if used differently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NIck,</p>
<p>&#8220;emittance is not really intensive;&#8221;</p>
<p>flux density is just as intensive a property as pressure which is also expressed as units/unit area.   It follows from the definition of an intensive property which is  a property that does not depend on the size of the system.  Changing the volume is irrelevant and the area (system size in this case) makes no difference.</p>
<p>Check it out for yourself in wikipedia if you are uncertain.  In any case the two words are used interchangeably by enough folks for Merriam-Webster to include one in the definition of the other, and there is a simple linear relationship between the two if used differently.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-129505</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/#comment-129505</guid>
		<description>JM: &lt;i&gt;Both venus and mars are counter examples.&lt;/i&gt;
But your quote specifies “In Earth-type atmospheres ...&quot; 
Gee that was easy ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JM: <i>Both venus and mars are counter examples.</i><br />
But your quote specifies “In Earth-type atmospheres &#8230;&#8221;<br />
Gee that was easy <img src='http://landshape.org/enm/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Nick Stokes</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-129352</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Stokes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:20:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/#comment-129352</guid>
		<description>Jan, emittance is not really intensive; you can express it as per unit area, but not per unit volume. However, if the intensive/extensive contrast seems unhelpful, it isn&#039;t essential. Let&#039;s just say that emittance and emissivity are quite different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jan, emittance is not really intensive; you can express it as per unit area, but not per unit volume. However, if the intensive/extensive contrast seems unhelpful, it isn&#8217;t essential. Let&#8217;s just say that emittance and emissivity are quite different.</p>
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		<title>By: JM</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-129351</link>
		<dc:creator>JM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:18:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/#comment-129351</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think you&#039;re presenting M&#039;s ideas correctly.   From his paper comes the following assumption:

&quot;(d) — The surface heat capacity is equal to zero, the surface emissivity G ε is equal to one, and the surface radiates as a perfect blackbody. &quot;

Su = 2F violates this, it implies Su = F.

Then reading the abstract I came across &quot;In Earth-type atmospheres sustained planetary greenhouse effect with a stable ground surface temperature can only exist at a particular planetary average flux optical depth of 1.841&quot;

That would mean that planets with atmospheres were getting knocked out on an assembly line that make Henry Ford proud - they&#039;d all be the same.

They aren&#039;t.   Both venus and mars are counter examples.

I&#039;m sticking with &#039;junk&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re presenting M&#8217;s ideas correctly.   From his paper comes the following assumption:</p>
<p>&#8220;(d) — The surface heat capacity is equal to zero, the surface emissivity G ε is equal to one, and the surface radiates as a perfect blackbody. &#8221;</p>
<p>Su = 2F violates this, it implies Su = F.</p>
<p>Then reading the abstract I came across &#8220;In Earth-type atmospheres sustained planetary greenhouse effect with a stable ground surface temperature can only exist at a particular planetary average flux optical depth of 1.841&#8243;</p>
<p>That would mean that planets with atmospheres were getting knocked out on an assembly line that make Henry Ford proud &#8211; they&#8217;d all be the same.</p>
<p>They aren&#8217;t.   Both venus and mars are counter examples.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sticking with &#8216;junk&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jan Pompe</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-129270</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan Pompe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/#comment-129270</guid>
		<description>nick I stand corrected it may indeed be thought of as a vector when the radiation is seen to be  passing through an infinitesimal (arbitrary) surface. However this as much as anything high lights the fact that contrary to what you said in comment 12 to &quot;The Greenhouse Heat Engine&quot; :

&quot;3. The Kirchhoff Law. Well, as I have said, it is mis-stated, speaking of extensive quantities (emittances etc) instead of intensive (emissivity). &quot;

The emittances or fluxes or radiation energy densities, which are expressed in W/m^2 are an intensive property since the value doesn&#039;t change as you increase the area of the surface through which it passes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nick I stand corrected it may indeed be thought of as a vector when the radiation is seen to be  passing through an infinitesimal (arbitrary) surface. However this as much as anything high lights the fact that contrary to what you said in comment 12 to &#8220;The Greenhouse Heat Engine&#8221; :</p>
<p>&#8220;3. The Kirchhoff Law. Well, as I have said, it is mis-stated, speaking of extensive quantities (emittances etc) instead of intensive (emissivity). &#8221;</p>
<p>The emittances or fluxes or radiation energy densities, which are expressed in W/m^2 are an intensive property since the value doesn&#8217;t change as you increase the area of the surface through which it passes.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Stokes</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-129178</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Stokes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/models-of-greenhouse-effect/#comment-129178</guid>
		<description>Flux is a vector. It has direction. If you want to get into the electromagnetics, it is the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poynting_vector&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Poynting&lt;/a&gt; vector.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Flux is a vector. It has direction. If you want to get into the electromagnetics, it is the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poynting_vector" rel="nofollow"> Poynting</a> vector.</p>
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