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	<title>Comments on: Moncktons argument</title>
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	<link>http://landshape.org/enm/moncktons-argument/</link>
	<description>The Power of Numeracy</description>
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		<title>By: Nick Stokes</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/moncktons-argument/#comment-1201</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Stokes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=3553#comment-1201</guid>
		<description>Of the feedbacks involving greenhouse effect, yes. Ice albedo feedback is also important - I&#039;m not sure how they rank. But CO2 is minor. It wouldn&#039;t be remarked at all except that it&#039;s rise can be seen in the paleo record. But that rise is quite small relative to the very big temperature changes.To put it another way, the post-ice age rise in CO2 is typically less than the current manmade rise. Yet the post-ice age temperature rise is of the order of 6C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of the feedbacks involving greenhouse effect, yes. Ice albedo feedback is also important &#8211; I&#039;m not sure how they rank. But CO2 is minor. It wouldn&#039;t be remarked at all except that it&#039;s rise can be seen in the paleo record. But that rise is quite small relative to the very big temperature changes.To put it another way, the post-ice age rise in CO2 is typically less than the current manmade rise. Yet the post-ice age temperature rise is of the order of 6C.</p>
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		<title>By: JamesG</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/moncktons-argument/#comment-1200</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=3553#comment-1200</guid>
		<description>NickAre you saying here that the main amplifier in ice age cycles was also water vapor? And if not, why not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NickAre you saying here that the main amplifier in ice age cycles was also water vapor? And if not, why not?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Stokes</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/moncktons-argument/#comment-12235</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Stokes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=3553#comment-12235</guid>
		<description>Of the feedbacks involving greenhouse effect, yes. Ice albedo feedback is also important - I&#039;m not sure how they rank. But CO2 is minor. It wouldn&#039;t be remarked at all except that it&#039;s rise can be seen in the paleo record. But that rise is quite small relative to the very big temperature changes.

To put it another way, the post-ice age rise in CO2 is typically less than the current manmade rise. Yet the post-ice age temperature rise is of the order of 6C. 

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of the feedbacks involving greenhouse effect, yes. Ice albedo feedback is also important &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure how they rank. But CO2 is minor. It wouldn&#8217;t be remarked at all except that it&#8217;s rise can be seen in the paleo record. But that rise is quite small relative to the very big temperature changes.</p>
<p>To put it another way, the post-ice age rise in CO2 is typically less than the current manmade rise. Yet the post-ice age temperature rise is of the order of 6C. </p>
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		<title>By: JamesG</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/moncktons-argument/#comment-12234</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=3553#comment-12234</guid>
		<description>Nick
Are you saying here that the main amplifier in ice age cycles was also water vapor? And if not, why not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick<br />
Are you saying here that the main amplifier in ice age cycles was also water vapor? And if not, why not?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Stokes</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/moncktons-argument/#comment-1199</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Stokes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=3553#comment-1199</guid>
		<description>Of the feedbacks involving greenhouse effect, yes. Ice albedo feedback is also important - I&#039;m not sure how they rank. But CO2 is minor. It wouldn&#039;t be remarked at all except that it&#039;s rise can be seen in the paleo record. But that rise is quite small relative to the very big temperature changes.To put it another way, the post-ice age rise in CO2 is typically less than the current manmade rise. Yet the post-ice age temperature rise is of the order of 6C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of the feedbacks involving greenhouse effect, yes. Ice albedo feedback is also important &#8211; I&#039;m not sure how they rank. But CO2 is minor. It wouldn&#039;t be remarked at all except that it&#039;s rise can be seen in the paleo record. But that rise is quite small relative to the very big temperature changes.To put it another way, the post-ice age rise in CO2 is typically less than the current manmade rise. Yet the post-ice age temperature rise is of the order of 6C.</p>
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		<title>By: JamesG</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/moncktons-argument/#comment-1198</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=3553#comment-1198</guid>
		<description>NickAre you saying here that the main amplifier in ice age cycles was also water vapor? And if not, why not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NickAre you saying here that the main amplifier in ice age cycles was also water vapor? And if not, why not?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Short</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/moncktons-argument/#comment-12187</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Short</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 23:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=3553#comment-12187</guid>
		<description>Anthony

In relation to the biomass that counts (CO2-wise), from Wikipedia:

Global primary production can be estimated from satellite observations. Satellites scan the normalised difference vegetation index (NDVI) over terrestrial habitats, and scan sea-surface chlorophyll levels over oceans. This results in 56.4 billion tonnes C/yr (53.8%), for terrestrial primary production, and 48.5 billion tonnes C/yr (46.2%) for oceanic primary production.

Thus, the total photoautotrophic primary production for the Earth is about 104.9 billion tonnes C/yr. This translates to about 426 gC/m²/yr for land production (excluding areas with permanent ice cover), and 140 gC/m²/yr for the oceans.

However, there is a much more significant difference in standing stocks - while accounting for almost half of total annual production, living oceanic autotrophs account for only about 0.2% of the total biomass.

BTW, in an interesting aside, there is 5 times as much biomass of krill (which feed on oceanic autotrophs) on the planet as there is biomass of humans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anthony</p>
<p>In relation to the biomass that counts (CO2-wise), from Wikipedia:</p>
<p>Global primary production can be estimated from satellite observations. Satellites scan the normalised difference vegetation index (NDVI) over terrestrial habitats, and scan sea-surface chlorophyll levels over oceans. This results in 56.4 billion tonnes C/yr (53.8%), for terrestrial primary production, and 48.5 billion tonnes C/yr (46.2%) for oceanic primary production.</p>
<p>Thus, the total photoautotrophic primary production for the Earth is about 104.9 billion tonnes C/yr. This translates to about 426 gC/m²/yr for land production (excluding areas with permanent ice cover), and 140 gC/m²/yr for the oceans.</p>
<p>However, there is a much more significant difference in standing stocks &#8211; while accounting for almost half of total annual production, living oceanic autotrophs account for only about 0.2% of the total biomass.</p>
<p>BTW, in an interesting aside, there is 5 times as much biomass of krill (which feed on oceanic autotrophs) on the planet as there is biomass of humans.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Short</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/moncktons-argument/#comment-1197</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Short</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 22:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=3553#comment-1197</guid>
		<description>AnthonyIn relation to the biomass that counts (CO2-wise), from Wikipedia:Global primary production can be estimated from satellite observations. Satellites scan the normalised difference vegetation index (NDVI) over terrestrial habitats, and scan sea-surface chlorophyll levels over oceans. This results in 56.4 billion tonnes C/yr (53.8%), for terrestrial primary production, and 48.5 billion tonnes C/yr (46.2%) for oceanic primary production.Thus, the total photoautotrophic primary production for the Earth is about 104.9 billion tonnes C/yr. This translates to about 426 gC/mÂ²/yr for land production (excluding areas with permanent ice cover), and 140 gC/mÂ²/yr for the oceans.However, there is a much more significant difference in standing stocks - while accounting for almost half of total annual production, living oceanic autotrophs account for only about 0.2% of the total biomass.BTW, in an interesting aside, there is 5 times as much biomass of krill (which feed on oceanic autotrophs) on the planet as there is biomass of humans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AnthonyIn relation to the biomass that counts (CO2-wise), from Wikipedia:Global primary production can be estimated from satellite observations. Satellites scan the normalised difference vegetation index (NDVI) over terrestrial habitats, and scan sea-surface chlorophyll levels over oceans. This results in 56.4 billion tonnes C/yr (53.8%), for terrestrial primary production, and 48.5 billion tonnes C/yr (46.2%) for oceanic primary production.Thus, the total photoautotrophic primary production for the Earth is about 104.9 billion tonnes C/yr. This translates to about 426 gC/mÂ²/yr for land production (excluding areas with permanent ice cover), and 140 gC/mÂ²/yr for the oceans.However, there is a much more significant difference in standing stocks &#8211; while accounting for almost half of total annual production, living oceanic autotrophs account for only about 0.2% of the total biomass.BTW, in an interesting aside, there is 5 times as much biomass of krill (which feed on oceanic autotrophs) on the planet as there is biomass of humans.</p>
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		<title>By: cohenite</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/moncktons-argument/#comment-12183</link>
		<dc:creator>cohenite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 04:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=3553#comment-12183</guid>
		<description>Thanks Steve; in respect of CO2 determining oceanic biomass have a look at this paper;

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v394/n6688/full/394055a0.html

In the mean time I&#039;m going to do some crocheting and be patient as Nick advises.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Steve; in respect of CO2 determining oceanic biomass have a look at this paper;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v394/n6688/full/394055a0.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v394/n6688/full/394055a0.html</a></p>
<p>In the mean time I&#8217;m going to do some crocheting and be patient as Nick advises.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Short</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/moncktons-argument/#comment-12182</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Short</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 04:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=3553#comment-12182</guid>
		<description>Hi Anthony; I got that figure of 53% for land biomass distribution more recently from a Nature Geoscience (to which I subscribe) paper. Then I work my way through it once a month while sitting on the you-know-what! I can try to dig out the reference if you like?

I don&#039;t recall any paper for global biomass balances between the land and oceans which shows an increase or altered balance in recent times due to &#039;extra CO2&#039;. The 50:50 or 53:47 ratios (land:ocean) have a fair bit of imprecision (prob. ~±5%) anyway. It is just not possible to be precise about such massive amounts!

Cyanobacterial primary productivity in the oceans is generally limited by nutrients - principally available nitrogen and dissolved iron. Water temperature (and hence concentration of dissolved CO2) is almost invariably not a limiting factor, except in the rarest circumstances.

Even if the oceans were a net CO2 emitter (I haven&#039;t read the Frank paper) this would not alter the cyanobacterial primary productivity.

But I very much doubt that proposition! 

While the remineralization depth can be shown to be quite significant in altering atmospheric CO2 (Kwon et al., September 2009), the magnitude of the sinking flux of organic carbon, most of which derives from CO2 &#039;fixed&#039; by cyanobacteria is so overwhelming that it ensures that the oceans are always a net sink of CO2. 

This is why we have massive amounts of oil, gas, Latrobe Valley brown coal (a marine sediment) etc., etc., deriving from the oceanic fixed carbon sinks.  No one (not even God) thought to switch those processes off!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Anthony; I got that figure of 53% for land biomass distribution more recently from a Nature Geoscience (to which I subscribe) paper. Then I work my way through it once a month while sitting on the you-know-what! I can try to dig out the reference if you like?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t recall any paper for global biomass balances between the land and oceans which shows an increase or altered balance in recent times due to &#8216;extra CO2&#8242;. The 50:50 or 53:47 ratios (land:ocean) have a fair bit of imprecision (prob. ~±5%) anyway. It is just not possible to be precise about such massive amounts!</p>
<p>Cyanobacterial primary productivity in the oceans is generally limited by nutrients &#8211; principally available nitrogen and dissolved iron. Water temperature (and hence concentration of dissolved CO2) is almost invariably not a limiting factor, except in the rarest circumstances.</p>
<p>Even if the oceans were a net CO2 emitter (I haven&#8217;t read the Frank paper) this would not alter the cyanobacterial primary productivity.</p>
<p>But I very much doubt that proposition! </p>
<p>While the remineralization depth can be shown to be quite significant in altering atmospheric CO2 (Kwon et al., September 2009), the magnitude of the sinking flux of organic carbon, most of which derives from CO2 &#8216;fixed&#8217; by cyanobacteria is so overwhelming that it ensures that the oceans are always a net sink of CO2. </p>
<p>This is why we have massive amounts of oil, gas, Latrobe Valley brown coal (a marine sediment) etc., etc., deriving from the oceanic fixed carbon sinks.  No one (not even God) thought to switch those processes off!</p>
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