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	<title>Comments on: Sea Level Acceleration</title>
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	<description>The power of numeracy</description>
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		<title>By: Climate Change Confusion Sea Level &#171; My Traveling Family</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/sea-level-acceleration/comment-page-1/#comment-179596</link>
		<dc:creator>Climate Change Confusion Sea Level &#171; My Traveling Family</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 07:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=2918#comment-179596</guid>
		<description>[...] Niche Modeling [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Niche Modeling [...]</p>
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		<title>By: davids99us</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/sea-level-acceleration/comment-page-1/#comment-179378</link>
		<dc:creator>davids99us</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 01:08:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=2918#comment-179378</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think such people should not be employed as scientists.  Go work for&lt;br&gt;Greenpeace or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think such people should not be employed as scientists.  Go work for<br />Greenpeace or something.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/sea-level-acceleration/comment-page-1/#comment-179377</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 00:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=2918#comment-179377</guid>
		<description>&quot;In our view, when presenting numbers to the public scientists need to be equally cautious about erring on the low as they are on the high side. For society, after all, under-estimating global warming is likely the greater danger.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This really grinds my gears. Experts are all like this. The Knowledge Problem has been known now for at least eighty years. Being an &quot;expert&quot; doesn&#039;t make one any better a planner than the market is, in fact, their limited knowledge makes them worse almost a priori. They don&#039;t even think they &quot;know&quot; that underestimating is more dangerous. It&#039;s blindness to their own ignorance, blindness to the possibility that overestimating warming is more dangerous than they can conceive...or, considering the political implications of their belief that the should decide which information is useful for planning, it&#039;s Far-Left politics.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;That quote is, to those of us &quot;in the know&quot; the most revealing look at RC&#039;s ideology one can get.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In our view, when presenting numbers to the public scientists need to be equally cautious about erring on the low as they are on the high side. For society, after all, under-estimating global warming is likely the greater danger.&#8221;</p>
<p>This really grinds my gears. Experts are all like this. The Knowledge Problem has been known now for at least eighty years. Being an &#8220;expert&#8221; doesn&#39;t make one any better a planner than the market is, in fact, their limited knowledge makes them worse almost a priori. They don&#39;t even think they &#8220;know&#8221; that underestimating is more dangerous. It&#39;s blindness to their own ignorance, blindness to the possibility that overestimating warming is more dangerous than they can conceive&#8230;or, considering the political implications of their belief that the should decide which information is useful for planning, it&#39;s Far-Left politics.</p>
<p>That quote is, to those of us &#8220;in the know&#8221; the most revealing look at RC&#39;s ideology one can get.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/sea-level-acceleration/comment-page-1/#comment-179376</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 00:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=2918#comment-179376</guid>
		<description>I have &lt;i&gt;got&lt;/i&gt; to remember to do my &quot;How temperature changes are related to rates of CO2 increase&quot; idea one of these days. I think it may help to demystify that issue.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Fun fact about Greenland:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;At the current rate of ice loss (.4% per &lt;i&gt;century&lt;/i&gt;) Greenland won&#039;t melt entirely for 25 &lt;i&gt;thousand&lt;/i&gt; years!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have <i>got</i> to remember to do my &#8220;How temperature changes are related to rates of CO2 increase&#8221; idea one of these days. I think it may help to demystify that issue.</p>
<p>Fun fact about Greenland:</p>
<p>At the current rate of ice loss (.4% per <i>century</i>) Greenland won&#39;t melt entirely for 25 <i>thousand</i> years!</p>
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		<title>By: cohenite</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/sea-level-acceleration/comment-page-1/#comment-179375</link>
		<dc:creator>cohenite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=2918#comment-179375</guid>
		<description>That is true enough but the alarmists are saying that glacial melt especially fom the Pine Island Glacier and various Greenland and Alaskan glaciers will inundate us all. However, things are not going to AGW plan because OHC is actually declining and the rate of sea level increase is also declining; all at a time whem CO2 is still increasing, although Watts did recently notice something interesting about that;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/21/recent-ocean-heat-and-mlo-co2-trends/#more-6378&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/21/recent-oc...&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is true enough but the alarmists are saying that glacial melt especially fom the Pine Island Glacier and various Greenland and Alaskan glaciers will inundate us all. However, things are not going to AGW plan because OHC is actually declining and the rate of sea level increase is also declining; all at a time whem CO2 is still increasing, although Watts did recently notice something interesting about that;</p>
<p><a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/21/recent-ocean-heat-and-mlo-co2-trends/#more-6378" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/21/recent-oc.." rel="nofollow">http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/21/recent-oc..</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/sea-level-acceleration/comment-page-1/#comment-179374</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:11:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=2918#comment-179374</guid>
		<description>Glacial melt is mostly secondary for sea level. Thermal expansion is the big effect. So while this is a good point, it is trivial in comparison to the more serious issues with regard to temperature and sea level relationships.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glacial melt is mostly secondary for sea level. Thermal expansion is the big effect. So while this is a good point, it is trivial in comparison to the more serious issues with regard to temperature and sea level relationships.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/sea-level-acceleration/comment-page-1/#comment-179373</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=2918#comment-179373</guid>
		<description>&quot;Finally, I have grave uncertainty about the meaning and accuracy of SST. Is it merely a parameter that has no great significance but has a convenient shape with time as Andrew notes?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This concern is well placed. I won&#039;t get much into the data quality issues (Buckets and Inlets etc.) But the physical interpretation of a relationship between SST and sea level is pretty tricky. From the surface temperatures, one could not tell if the bulk of the ocean increased in heat content or just a shallow layer-the thermal expansion depends on the total heat content of the oceans, not the temperature at the surface. Over long time scales this may not be a big issue. But that begs the question of how quickly heat diffuses from the surface to lower layers, or vice versa. My understand is that this is tied into lots of &lt;i&gt;other&lt;/i&gt; climate issues, including sensitivity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Finally, I have grave uncertainty about the meaning and accuracy of SST. Is it merely a parameter that has no great significance but has a convenient shape with time as Andrew notes?&#8221;</p>
<p>This concern is well placed. I won&#39;t get much into the data quality issues (Buckets and Inlets etc.) But the physical interpretation of a relationship between SST and sea level is pretty tricky. From the surface temperatures, one could not tell if the bulk of the ocean increased in heat content or just a shallow layer-the thermal expansion depends on the total heat content of the oceans, not the temperature at the surface. Over long time scales this may not be a big issue. But that begs the question of how quickly heat diffuses from the surface to lower layers, or vice versa. My understand is that this is tied into lots of <i>other</i> climate issues, including sensitivity.</p>
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		<title>By: davids99us</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/sea-level-acceleration/comment-page-1/#comment-179372</link>
		<dc:creator>davids99us</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 20:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=2918#comment-179372</guid>
		<description>It is what it is.  SL is strongly linear with temperature, rate of SL rise is not correlated with temperature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is what it is.  SL is strongly linear with temperature, rate of SL rise is not correlated with temperature.</p>
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		<title>By: cohenite</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/sea-level-acceleration/comment-page-1/#comment-179371</link>
		<dc:creator>cohenite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 12:00:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=2918#comment-179371</guid>
		<description>You would also think that sea level rise from temperature increase would be non-linear because ice-melting does not have a direct relationship with temperature increase; glaciers can expand in warmer conditions. The RC constants for long term and short term sea level responses to temperature would also seem to be defeated by the historical relationship between temperature and sea level;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TDdxO2FHJPs/SQ2wsVEvoxI/AAAAAAAAACs/DGM5SR0OWWQ/s1600-h/Sea-level_Ice-Temperatures_CO2_20ka_Graph.png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TDdxO2FHJPs/SQ2wsVEvo...&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You would also think that sea level rise from temperature increase would be non-linear because ice-melting does not have a direct relationship with temperature increase; glaciers can expand in warmer conditions. The RC constants for long term and short term sea level responses to temperature would also seem to be defeated by the historical relationship between temperature and sea level;</p>
<p><a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TDdxO2FHJPs/SQ2wsVEvoxI/AAAAAAAAACs/DGM5SR0OWWQ/s1600-h/Sea-level_Ice-Temperatures_CO2_20ka_Graph.png" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TDdxO2FHJPs/SQ2wsVEvo.." rel="nofollow">http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TDdxO2FHJPs/SQ2wsVEvo..</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: sherro</title>
		<link>http://landshape.org/enm/sea-level-acceleration/comment-page-1/#comment-179370</link>
		<dc:creator>sherro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 08:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://landshape.org/enm/?p=2918#comment-179370</guid>
		<description>&quot;How do we know that the relationship between temperature rise and sea level rate is linear&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Intuitively, it should not be linear because expansions of the oceans are not just upwards but sideways as well. I have not seen an estimate of the various volumes of water that would cause successive 1 mm rises on addition, taking into account the shape of the basins to be filled.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Then there is the problem of the whole ocean. Strictly, a thermal increase in volumes requires all of the volume, on average, to be heated. It is not adequate to show that the top x metres have heated. It is also required to show that the rest of the oceans have not cooled. I suspect that the data are too sparse to model whole ocean temperatures for expansion, given that currents are altering grid cell temperatures all the time; and that some currents have too few data points, like those that flow under ice.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Then there is lag. I have not seen a paper that uses buoy data to estimate thermal lag with depth, though it should be possible to get some idea from day/night changes. There might be papers, I just have not seen them. If you have a delta T at the surface, how long does it take to propagate to X, Y, Z,  m depth? And then the reverse movement as it cools? Surely one needs a handle on this to try to dissect causation.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Finally, I have grave uncertainty about the meaning and accuracy of SST. Is it merely a parameter that has no great significance but has a convenient shape with time as Andrew notes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;How do we know that the relationship between temperature rise and sea level rate is linear&#8221;</p>
<p>Intuitively, it should not be linear because expansions of the oceans are not just upwards but sideways as well. I have not seen an estimate of the various volumes of water that would cause successive 1 mm rises on addition, taking into account the shape of the basins to be filled.</p>
<p>Then there is the problem of the whole ocean. Strictly, a thermal increase in volumes requires all of the volume, on average, to be heated. It is not adequate to show that the top x metres have heated. It is also required to show that the rest of the oceans have not cooled. I suspect that the data are too sparse to model whole ocean temperatures for expansion, given that currents are altering grid cell temperatures all the time; and that some currents have too few data points, like those that flow under ice.</p>
<p>Then there is lag. I have not seen a paper that uses buoy data to estimate thermal lag with depth, though it should be possible to get some idea from day/night changes. There might be papers, I just have not seen them. If you have a delta T at the surface, how long does it take to propagate to X, Y, Z,  m depth? And then the reverse movement as it cools? Surely one needs a handle on this to try to dissect causation.</p>
<p>Finally, I have grave uncertainty about the meaning and accuracy of SST. Is it merely a parameter that has no great significance but has a convenient shape with time as Andrew notes?</p>
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